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[Spoilers] Lost and Mythical Cities - Mysterious Setting Discussions
Cities made of gold were popular mythical cities when the Spanish were colonizing the Americas. The most famous of these is of course El Dorado which was often believed to be in South America. Based on Isu sites I speculated it could be near modern-day Bogota, Lima, Machu Picchu, or the Delta of the Amazon River. Looking North was alleged to be another 7 cities scattered through the southwest US called the 7 Cities of Cibola. These were (obviously) seven native American cities filled with gold and treasure. The Zuni-Cibola Complex of sites around the Sonora Desert is likely what gave rise to these rumors combined with the myth of the gold cities dating back to the 9th century, Spain. In 1540 Francisco Vázquez de Coronado led an expedition throughout the southwest finding the city of Quivira along with other Adobe towns but never found any gold. This might be good side content for a game set in the southwest during the Mexican American War, or it could be a good DLC to a game set in Aztec Mexico. What really interests me is the combination of Aztec Mythology and this Spanish Mythology about the golden cities and islands of gold, and the thing that ties it all together is interestingly Vikings. I go pretty heavy into some theory/ conspiracy territory in THIS thread and would recommend checking it out for some ideas about Norumbega appearing in Assassin’s Creed Valhalla.
The other really famous North American site is the Fountain of Youth. Stories about a place that keeps one young started thousands of years ago, and were even told by Herodotus. The first Governor of Puerto Rico, Juan Ponce de Leon, was allegedly told that the fountain was on the island of Bimini, though within assassin’s creed Lore, this was likely an intentional red herring. Ponce de Leon would become obsessed with the fountain and take several voyages to Florida looking for it. His last voyage was in 1521 when he was attacked and injured by an arrow after landing in Charlotte harbor. Within AC lore, this was purposefully done by native assassins protecting the Isu site due to Ponce de Leon getting too close. He would die from the wounds a few days later in Cuba. Ponce de Leon’s enthusiasm has since caused many people to go searching for the fountain, and I think this would be a wonderful DLC for an Aztec and Mayan based game. Maybe templars are searching in the Yucatan and find a clue to show that it’s not in Bimini but really in Florida, and our character could hunt them to Florida and work with local assassins there.
I want to preface this by saying that Northern Africa actually wasn’t always a large desert. 15,000 years ago, it was actually in a humid period and covered in grasslands, forests, and lakes. Lake Chad in the Chad basin is currently 521 square miles in area, but just 12,000 years ago covered over 150,000 square miles. Just within the past 40 years, the lake has shrunk 95% of its size from 1972. To the west are other major rivers including the Senegal and Niger which still exist, and have been historically important trade routes. Just to the north, though, was the Tamanrasset, a massive palaeochannel that was filled with water as late as just 5,000 years ago. In the middle of this channel was a volcanic dome that was eroded away leaving several rings making the Eye of the Sahara or the Richat Structure. You’re bound to find tons of things online saying it might be Atlantis, which while a fascinating theory, it probably wasn’t. Atlantis is most likely a myth based on the Minoan Civilization that was destroyed by the eruption of Thera; which was what Odyssey based its Atlantis on (combined with Isu). Despite this, the Richat Structure is almost definitely an Isu site, and was right around the location of the Mali Empire in Mauritania, making it perfect to fit in for a game centered around Mansa Musa, who could even tie back to Midas and his “golden touch”. There is debate around whether or not the structure was ever inhabited, but some claim pottery and shards have been found there. At a minimum, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to find a settlement or camp there made of tents.
The rivers would dry up due to weather changes with the ice age, and between over-farming of goats and weather and climate conditions, the one fertile plains gave way to the desert over several thousand years, creating the Sahara we now have. In the late 15th century, a camel driver crossing the Sahara west of Egypt lost his way during a sandstorm during which his entire party had died. He wandered the desert lost and confused for days before being met by people who spoke a different form of Arabic and carried strange swords. They brought him to a largely white city in the desert named Zerzura and treated him with care and comfort until a mysterious golden ring appeared in his possession that the city guards became extremely angry over. They dragged him into the desert to have his hands chopped off when he escaped and eventually made it to Benghazi in Libya. He told locals the story and when they went to look for the city and oasis, they couldn’t find it. Allegedly, though, this mysterious ring did come back with the camel driver and in the 1970s, al-Gaddafi took the ring for himself. Maybe the city was an isu city or an apple illusion? I’d love to see this mystery tackled in AC though, maybe as a DLC, where the lost city is found by our protagonist, and the inhabitants never let anyone leave who found it. Maybe the city isn’t isu itself, but has a deep connection to the Isu or was an Isu factory of sorts, creating Rings of Eden which had the ability to reflect bullets. Perhaps this special golden ring had even more power than that.
Troy is best known for being the city-state that started the Trojan War and was a real lost city. After its destruction during the Trojan War, it was eventually repopulated by Greeks, but would be abandoned again. Located near Canakkale, Troy’s walls have since been found again, with some potential for even precise sewer and wall placement as described by Homer. While it was a lost city for a while, it doesn’t appear to be home to an Isu Vault. That said, I could see it being made a tomb or something like that in a game in Anatolia, as Perseus may have gained a Sword of Eden there, and Achilles who died at Troy may have held a PoE. I can definitely see Achilles having a shroud which kept him from dying in battle until an arrow in the foot caused him to trip and lose his protection.
A thousand years before the fall of Troy was the Phrygian Empire, with the capital city of Gordion established by Gordias. Some stories say that he adopted a son named Midas, who did a good deed for a Sartyr and was granted a wish by Dionysus. He asked for anything he touched to be turned to gold and famously tried to eat an apple which then turned to Gold. A potential tomb of Midas lies beneath Gordion, and it’d be interesting to find if he was given another type of apple that made people think everything was gold, or if he was given a special piece of Eden that did indeed turn everything he touched to Gold.
To the east are some very famous lost cities. The first of which is Shangri-La. Now Shangri-La itself is entirely mythical and comes from a 1933 novel. It is, however, based on the travelogue of French Missionaries from 1850 and ancient Tibetan Manuscripts that describe the existence of seven Nghe-Beyul Khembalung. These are sacred Beyuls or hidden valleys within the Tibetan Mountains. Despite the heavy ties to Buddhism, some ancient Chinese texts from the Qin Dynasty even describe these lands. A realistic take on Shangri-La would be fantastic to see and could easily be a DLC for a game set in China or India due to both bordering Tibet and having owned the mountains at various times.
Looking farther east we find another lost civilization, Yamatai. An ancient Sino-Japanese civilization from around 300bce-300ce, it existed at the height of the Yayoi period as the Yayoi people traveled across the strait of Korea and conquered the islands of Japan from the neolithic Jomon people. Yamatai has never been found, and thus speculation on it varies a ton. Some speculation marks it in modern Kyushu, in Southwest Japan, while other speculation puts it in the Strait of Korea near (or perhaps it was) Tsushima. My thought was that it could be an island among the Ryukyu Island chain. No lore exists on Yamatai, but there is an Isu Site right around the Ryukyu Islands near Taiwan. As a result, an island Yamatai like explored in Tomb Raider could make a solid DLC for feudal Japan or better yet, the Three Kingdoms China. During the three Kingdoms, Himiko came to power as a Shamaness-Queen of Yamatai, unifying the state after decades of warring between rival kings. Himiko has many different appearances tied to her, that of a seductive sorceress, an evil black magic user, a wise old woman, etc. Maybe we could see her as all of the above using a PoE to rule. Alternatively, as many historians think, Himiko may have been the Empress Consort Jingu who ruled as Regent. Both died in the mid 3rd century as well, and a DLC exploring the living Himiko or her Legacy would be fantastic.
The Isu Era is the only setting here really deserving of its own game, but with that comes many issues of satisfactory lore after a decade and a half of build-up, and also whether it can satisfy the itch for historical fiction. Humans and Isu were at war with each other only for a few years about 75,000 years ago. From the lore we can tell, Adam and Eve were the first to escape the city of Eden, a garden-like city near Mt. Kilimanjaro in eastern Africa. While Adam and Eve appear to be the first humans to hold the ideals of the Assassins and have high Isu DNA concentration to resist the apples’ power, their son Cain appears to have been one of the first to hold the ideals of what would become the Templars. Other major cities we know about are Feyan and Atlantis. Atlantis’ lore is somewhat messy due to the way that the Odyssey DLC presents itself. It’s unclear how much of the memory was edited for Kassandra, how the city really looked, etc. Based on the memory shown to Desmond in Revelations, it appears most cities were large glassy structures, meaning either Atlantis was some strange exception or the memory was heavily altered. Feyan also appears to have been an important city, being where Juno went after being exiled from Atlantis, meeting with her father, Saturn, there. Juno was part of the Capitoline triad of Isu Scientists, which to me signals that Feyan was likely either the city of Rome or the city in modern-day New York that stood over the Grand Temple. A game exploring these cities and assassinating Isu and dealing with Human drama during the war leading up to the great disaster could be fascinating for sure. Perhaps this would be the best way to make a modern-day game and ending for the series. 50/50 Modern Day and Isu times for an all-out lore explosion.
On Kaminsod's origin: my findings so far
...as for where The Crippled god is from, yeah, there are some pretty strong hints in the series... and you are welcome to go find themHis comment comes from u/Grindingstone question presented in this post.
Since I've been researching the subject for some time now, I concluded that it was a good moment to release my findings in this format( I didn't think there was any interest in this kind of pursuit, but I've been proven wrong).
- What's on text
TCG talks to his priest Munug:
The god hissed. ‘Nor should you expect it! Not in this life, not in the thousand others you are doomed to endure before you attain salvation – assuming you have suffered enough to have earned it!’
- Kaminsod is talking about a cycle of reincarnation here, that eventually leads to salvation earned by suffering
Were all of the jade giants appearing somewhere in his own realm? That seemed impossible. They would be present in countless locations, if that was the case. Present, and inescapably visible. No, the wound was enormous, the giants diminishing into specks before reaching its waiting oblivion. A wound such as that could swallow thousands of worlds. Tens, hundreds of thousands.Heboric's visions inside the Jade Giant
There were voices roaring through his skull. Too many, in languages he could not recognize, much less comprehend.
Then a string of words reached through the tumult, close as if whispered in his ear, and he understood them. ‘You came from there. What shall we find, Handless One? What lies beyond the gash?’
Then another voice spoke, louder, more imperious: ‘What god now owns your hands, old man? Tell me! Even their ghosts are not here — who is holding on to you? Tell me!’
‘There are no gods,’ a third voice cut in, this one female.
‘So you say!’ came yet another, filled with spite. ‘In your empty, barren, miserable world!’
‘Gods are born of belief, and belief is dead. We murdered it, with our vast intelligence. You were too primitive—’
‘Killing gods is not hard. The easiest murder of all. Nor is it a measure of intelligence. Not even of civilization. Indeed, the indifference with which such death-blows are delivered is its own form of ignorance.’
‘More like forgetfulness. After all, it’s not the gods that are important, it is the stepping outside of oneself that gifts a mortal with virtue—’
‘Kneel before Order? You blind fool—’
‘Order? I was speaking of compassion—’
‘Fine, then go ahead! Step outside yourself, Leandris! No, better yet. Step outside.’
‘Only the new one can do that, Cassa. And he’d better be quick about it.’
- The followers of TCG speak "many languages".
- "your barren miserable world" so either TCG's followers come from different worlds, or this is a figure of speech. A different "world" would be, for instance, a time period with a different zeitgeist.
- There's an atheist among them. "we killed our gods" and "you were too primitive". Sounds pretty Nietzschean to me, like what someone in the Renaissance or during the Scientific revolution would say to an ancient greek.
- Cassa and Leandris. Cassandra and Leander? Greek names? Are his followers, at least in part, of greek origin?
On the landscape before him was a vast city, rising up from a level plain with tiered gardens and raised walkways. A cluster of towers rose from the far side, reaching to extraordinary heights. Farmland reached out from the city’s outskirts in every direction for as far as Brys could see, strange shadows flowing over it as he watched. He pulled his gaze from the scene and looked down, to find that he stood on a platform of red-stained limestone. Before him steep steps ran downward, row upon row, hundreds, to a paved expanse flanked by blue-painted columns. A glance to his right revealed a sharply angled descent. He was on a flat-topped pyramid-shaped structure, and, he realized with a start, someone was standing beside him, on his left. A figure barely visible, ghostly, defying detail. It was tall, and seemed to be staring up at the sky, focused on the terrible dark wound. [...] Brys saw that a massive stone carving had come to rest there. A bizarre beast-like human, squatting with thickly muscled arms reaching down the front, converging with a two-handed grip on the penis. Shoulders and head were fashioned in the likeness of a bull. A second set of legs, feminine, were wrapped round the beast-man’s hips, the platform on which he crouched cut, Brys now saw, into a woman’s form, lying on her back beneath him. From nearby rose the clatter of scores of clay tablets – too distant for Brys to see if there was writing on them, though he suspected there might be – skidding as if on cushions of air before coming to a rest in a scattered swath. Fragments of buildings – cut limestone blocks, cornerstones, walls of adobe, wattle and daub. Then severed limbs, blood-drained sections of cattle and horses, a herd of something that might have been goats, each one turned inside out, intestines flopping. Dark-skinned humans – or at least their arms, legs and torsos.
‘A god, Brys Beddict. In its own realm, it was locked in a war. For there were rival gods. Temptations …’
- This is a description of the realm from which TCG came.
- The city seems to fit Babylon: the tiered gardens=hanging gardens of babylon, the pyramid in which Brys stands= a ziggurat, they also had blue dye applied to walls or columns, and them having tablets to scribe seems plausible.
- The minotaur-like sculpture flies over my head.
‘Its body is very far away indeed. I was granted an image of the flesh – a human, as far as I could tell, which is in itself rather extraordinary. I was able to capture the soul due to its heightened meditative state, one in which the detachment is very nearly absolute. I doubt the original body draws breath ten times a bell. A most spiritual individual, Crone.’ The Great Raven returned her attention to the apparition. Studied its jade eyes, its jagged traceries of crackling filaments, pulsing like a slowed heart. ‘And you know, then,’ she said. ‘Yes. The demon is from the realm of the Fallen One. His birthplace.’ ‘Meditating, you say. Seeking its god?’ ‘That seems likely,’ Baruk murmured. ‘Reaching, touching … recoiling.’
- So the followers of TCG meditate.
- They meditate to "seek their god".
- It mentions detachment. What religion meditates to detach from everything?
- The follower of TCG is essentially having an Out-of-body experience
‘What you ask of me, it is too much. Yes, of course I see the necessity – I may have sickened, even threatened, but magic is not my enemy. It never was. Indeed, I envy its gifts to this world. Upon my own … ah, no matter. Belief can be rotten. All it takes is one betrayal to steal away an entire future.
‘You would not have recognized me in my anger. It shone blinding bright. There remain those, among the multitudes I left behind, who imagine themselves gods, for all their mortal trappings. They would maintain a tyranny such as no true god could ever imagine. They would enslave generation upon generation – all those sharing the same soil, the same water, the same air. They conspire to keep them on their knees. Bowed in servitude. And each slave, measuring his or her life, can see – if they dare – only the truth, and so most of my world, most of my children, live a life of despair and suffering, and ever growing rage.
‘Is this all there must be? The tyrants would have it so. I sometimes dream … yes, I know you have little time … I dream of returning, swords blazing with holy vengeance. I dream, Shadowthrone, of murdering every one of those fuckers. Is this what it means to be a god? To be an implacable weapon of justice?
‘Wouldn’t that be nice. I agree.
‘No, I’m not that much of a fool. It will be no different. And should you achieve the impossible with your handful of mortals, should you free me … and find the path, the moment I take my first step upon the soil of my home they will emasculate me. Bleed me. Gut me, and then stretch my hide overhead. They’ll need shade from the torrid heat of all the fires they themselves lit. That is the problem with tyrants, they outlive us all.
‘No, I don’t either. Betrayers never do.
‘Shadowthrone. You will not betray me, will you?’
- Slavery, tyranny and despair. People that believe themselves gods.
- A sword blazing with holy vengeance.
‘Where he came from, every god is a Shield Anvil.Observation
The first thing to notice is the premise of the question. Erikson did not say the identity of Kaminsod could be figured out, just where he comes from. So even if we can figure out that Kaminsod comes from a particular culture or mythos in our world, that doesn't guarantee his identity will be uncovered.
What has been proposed
- Baldr. The case was made by u/lost_highlander on his post. My main doubts are: it doesn't explain the greek names, I don't know if a cycle of reincarnations fits in Norse religion, it doesn't fit the jade theme, doesn't fit the atheist follower and finally, for me, it doesn't work thematically.
- Dionysus, proposed by u/CrizzleCrazzle . It fits the greek names of the followers. In greek mythology, there is a tale where he is dismembered and then brought back to life using among other things his heart(like Kaminsod). My doubts are: doesn't work thematically, doesn't fit the jade, doesn't fit reincarnation.
- The Buddha, proposed by myself in a comment to the previous post. What doesn't work, in light of this new evidence: the "you wouldn't know me in my rage", the city described on MT, the Raven association, the greek names of the followers. However, it seems to fit thematically to some degree.
- Marduk: this is just a vague observation. If the city in MT is Babylon, then Marduk is the patron god of that city. Also, in that mythology, Marduk is the defeater of... Tiamat, the dragon goddess of destruction and likely inspiration to Malazan's Tiamatha. It doesn't fit much more as far as I know.
- YHWH/Christ: this one doesn't work at all for me, but it has been proposed.
I think it's beyond reasonable doubt that Kaminsod does come from our world's mythology.
I suspect no deity can fit all these findings: Jade symbolism, Greek named followers, an atheist follower, a deity followed in "many worlds" speaking "many languages" and presumably during a wide period of time, from a city that resembles Babylon, linked to Ravens, compatible with successive reincarnations by which suffering leads to salvation, a Shield anvil aspect, practicing meditation... this is just a guess, I'm not particularly knowledgeable on religions and mythologies.
At this point, I suspect Kaminsod is either a syncretism of (our world's)gods or a deconstruction of the concept in the literary sense.
PD: one of the motivations of this post is to crowd-source this effort. This is what I've come up so far. Having these excerpts and the entire context might be helpful to anyone else interested on this effort.
PD2: just saying, if The Hand Of Kaminsod On Earth comments this post, I'm getting a tattoo(and I've never even considered that in my life).
As usual, any insight is appreciated.
Thanks for reading!